I think both with coffee and beer there are two classes of establishment - the average city cafe or bar, and then the specialty "artisanal" establishment in big cities. My guess would be that the coffee at an average Italian town square bar is better than the same coffee at a coffee shop in Spain or France or the USA. However, it's not going to be anywhere on par with a specialty coffee shop in Manhattan that has searched the world and handpicked its bean flavor profiles to perfection.

It's the same thing with beer and Germany. The average beer in a random town brewery somewhere in Germany is tastier than a Budweiser, but as a beer lover, I would much rather end up at a beer bar with a 100 different beers on tap in a place like London or New York.

The interesting twist with Germany is that the same beer purity laws that originally allowed them to become a beer leader in the world are now holding them back in the craft beer revolution.

From my experience, it's more about culture and expectations than anything. You'll occasionally get a shop that can stand above its city, but eventually it'll regress to the mean. Here in the PNW you can walk into any coffee shop and get a good coffee about 50–75% of the time. In NYC, I'd say it's more like 10%. I think it's because people in NYC don't value coffee very much, or care only superficially. On the flipside, even shitty bagels in NYC are better than most of what you can get here. I hated all the coffee I had in France, but it might be because they prefer a bitter cup to be drunk with sugar, rather than the black coffee we drink in the US.

Sad truth is that average Italian town square bar coffee will probably be the exact same global shit brand coffee as in German town square town. If they are different it has to do more with local traditions maybe more skill or higher quality machine.

But yeah that also means that there is someone obsesive in every bigger city trying to get the best stuff world has to offer.

In so many ways the tradition in italy holds it back in coffe world and holds Germany in beer world. But even the German/Czech beer purity laws are not the real problem its the tradition. It's hard to inovate when beer is super popular but everybody thinks beer equals lager. It's conservatism.

> The interesting twist with Germany is that the same beer purity laws that originally allowed them to become a beer leader in the world are now holding them back in the craft beer revolution.

They can break those rules all they want and just not call what they're making "beer", right?

Yes. And its not like "craft" beer is somehow harder to make than lagers. Largers are actually one of the most complicated to brew and smaller German breweries do make wonderfuly crazy craft beers.

Besides traditions the craft beer "revolution" is due to hops. US climate and innovation brought new hop varieties that are crutial. To make craft beer you pretty much have to import US hops.

Absolutely not. Source: I’m Italian, I live in London, been to Berlin a couple of times, in the best case you can get something drinkable but nothing comparable to a nice espresso in Italy. I was actually surprised to find a pretty nice illy coffe in Kobe train station, but then I also found a very good Naples pizza in that city.

I relate to this 100%. Same background, lived in several places before ending up in London.

You can find good roasted coffee of many types in most of these places.

But if you need an espresso or any other Italian styled coffe. Nothing can beat Italy.

I admit one exception: Portugal. In a long trip to Lisbon I’ve done I had some of the best coffee there !

Edit: still using my 18yr old Bialetti for most of my coffee here and buying coffee when going back occasionally (ever brought back a trolley full of coffe through airport security checks?). Only reliable way so far to have decent coffee.

It must be different expectations about what is a good coffee.

London is i think the original place from where high end coffe culture spread out to europe and where idea of small independent roasters came from.

I often buy coffee from London when i can get it. Square Mile, Has Bean, Union Coffee, Caravan coffee all mostly highest quality stuff.

Funnily enough i've lived in portugal for a while and coffee was so bad i had hard time finding good beans. Luckily some cafes were importing stuff but no roasters.

Illy? Are you serious? Megabrand corporation that often uses mix of Arabica and Robusta not even full Arabica (meaning blend of cheapest cofee).

Look around a bit you can for sure find awesome cafes in London. If not there than probably nowhere. I posted few of my fav London roasteries to comment under this one.