This article makes no sense. It postulates that EVs will cost more to repair, and justifies the statement by the current lack of availablity and high cost of repair shops and parts for the Renault Zoe.
As for crashing, it's commonly understood that even on ICE cars, even minor damage to structural elements can total a 5+ year old car.
I was also surprised that they called out the complexity of EV drivetrains (and charging systems, but I don't know anything about those) as a factor. My prior understanding was that EV drivetrains are significantly simpler than ICE ones, the number of moving parts is comparatively low for EVs, and you don't have the large temperature gradients and intense mechanical impulses that come from repeatedly igniting fuel/air mixtures.
I don't dispute the empirical claims, but as the parent comment implies, I think this is mostly about the maturity of the repair ecosystem, and it's reasonable to expect that that will improve as EVs become more prevalent. It's not a reason to stop, it's a reason to keep going.
At least theoretically, EV drive trains should be more durable than their gasoline counterparts. But the batteries are the weak point. Nobody is making modular batteries that can be easily diagnosed and swapped, and those batteries are essentially incendiary devices that even an expert cannot assess. It's an opaque canister of chemicals that could be damaged internally without anyone being aware. External damage almost always causes spectacular fires that can't be extinguished. If you have an EV and get in a wreck, GTFO as soon as you can, especially if there are any fumes in sight.
The Ionic 5 has a quite modular battery array that looks far more repairable than other electric cars. Have a look at a teardown over here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PASNQU5RSw
If Hyundai won't fix it for less than $60k, and they total the car for scuff marks on the bottom, where does that leave you? Maybe you can get that Youtuber to fix it for you?
Dealers are known for being expensive. Furthermore, $60k is mostly a "go away" price from the dealer signalling that they don't have the skills and don't want to take on the risk on learning the skills needed to make the repair. The end result is that the article says more about the dealer than the manufacturer. There are plenty of decent third party mechanics in the world that are willing to try.
There's a similar video on youtube about repairing a dent in a Rivian truck. The official repair by a dealer was quoted at more than $40k as it involved replacing the entire single piece panel that was "damaged". Instead, a small auto body shop spent the 2 days needed to gently pull out the dent, fill in the scratches and touch up the paint for something like $3k.
Not all mechanics are created equal. Find one that's willing to work with you, which will become easier as electric vehicles become more common.
If you have a warranty, you may be obligated to go to the dealer or forfeit the warranty if I'm not mistaken. I never had this issue though. If the dealer wants you to gtfo with that garbage, a nearly new vehicle with their name on it, why do you think anyone else would be better able to do the job? I think a particular dealer not able to do the work would refer you to another dealer who could, if it was just a skill issue.
The problem with the Rivian was the body is all in one piece and made of aluminum, which is not easily reworked. Making the bed of a truck out of a soft metal that is hard to rework is a bad idea. But perhaps there is someone out there who could do it cheap.
Dealerships are like any other business: some of them are incompetent at certain tasks. My entire point is that if one dealer is not doing a good job, then go to someone else that is willing to try to do a better job.
Generally I agree, but only the dealers and manufacturer have all the technical data, software, and access to parts for these cars. They would not take telling a customer the job is infeasible lightly, especially if they have a warranty. They would probably send the customer to a different repair shop in their network if that was possible and necessary.
Your faith in dealerships is unreasonably high. Based on my experiences maintaining a fleet of trucks for my company in addition to my personal vehicles, there are most certainly dealerships / mechanics that are incompetent and unable to fix certain problems within a reasonable amount of time. Their mechanics are not magicians, and they vary in skill level significantly. Sometimes a quick 5 minutes spent on the internet will find a solution for a problem that the dealer's mechanics are clueless about, as was the case with the anti-theft lockout on the Alero I had. The stand-pipe issue on one of the older diesel trucks took the mechanic $3k worth of time to diagnose and fix, but once we knew about it, we found out that the issue was quite common for engines of that vintage (and we later found out that the other stand pipe in the engine had already been replaced by another mechanic prior to our purchase of that truck).
Other times a mechanic shows a degree of cleverness that makes them well worth compensating them for the time, like using an infrared camera app on their phone to find a wiring harness short in a minute rather than spending hours crawling around the chassis.
Hyundai essentially totaled 2 Ioniqs in Canada due to minor damage on the bottom that would be considered inconsequential on a gas vehicle. They wanted 60k to replace the batteries on those, which is more than the whole car cost. Teslas are notoriously expensive to fix. Rivian has a unibody design that can result in a $40k dent repair, IF you can even find someone to do it. Some of this is due to bad design and bad management, but the modern EV is so much more dangerous when damaged than a gasoline car, it warrants extreme precautions.
There are gasoline cars on the road that have a million miles on them. There are plenty of others over 50 years old still running great. If you think they're even remotely as fragile and difficult to rebuild as EVs, you are sadly mistaken.
There's no postulation - the insurance companies have the data. EVs are simply more to repair for similar damage to ICE vehicles. That's why many are seeing their insurance rates soar. Trust me, the people getting those bills aren't postulating about the higher costs!
Part of the story is EVs are getting into more accidents. I've seen an interesting theory as to why that is: they simply accelerate faster. Whether that increase in acceleration is causing accidents or causing people to get exhilarated with the new-found power and causing them to drive more recklessly is anybody's guess. Another interesting theory I've seen on that front is the earlier generations of Teslas were so expensive that only the well-off, and therefore tend to be older and more responsible, drivers could afford them. Now younger drivers are able to afford them and their driving habits aren't the same as their older counterparts and you're putting extremely capable muscle car capabilities into their hands that they've never had before. Many young guys get high on that kind of power and cause accidents.
It'll be interesting to see how this all pans out.
I would assume this is going to have a big part to do with whether the battery is damaged or not. Batteries once damaged are going to be recycle cells and replace the whole unit currently but otherwise the car is going to be pretty similar to an ICE. I also don't imagine as they become the majority of car sales that the hard to find repair shop situation will continue.
I also hope a lot of right to repair legislation and privacy legislation catches up with what has been happening in cars and that will make it easier to choose how a vehicle gets repaired and produce some competition.
I was truly amazed at the cost of relatively minor collusion damage on a friend's EV.
ICEs are not much better. I replaced a wi dscreen on an old 2015 and it cost $400. the mechanic said I was lucky the next year's version had a built in collusion avoidance camera system and I would HAVE to go to the dealer to fix it for ~$1,200
at that point, I would have just disabled the system completely. If I was planning to resell, then I would go back to the stealership and get it repaired.
In my opinion, there are way too many “assistance” systems in modern cars. In the USA, modern trucks and SUVs are built so high that it obstructs a significant amount of view directly in front of the vehicle. It’s become such a hazard to children and possibly some adults.
The solution by the industry? Add a camera to the front bumper…
It’s totally not the product we are selling. It’s the person!!1!
I dread the day I have to retire my sedan and forced to upgrade to a modern vehicle. I am even reluctant to upgrade to an EV due to the anti-repair trend most manufacturers have opted us into.
Let’s not forget the privacy nightmare…
Give me a manual transmission vehicle, a backup camera, a small to midsize car, and something that I can maintain myself. That’s all I need.
The ICE repair situation could be avoided simply if manufacturers did not design things to be unnecessarily high-tech. I think it's a deliberate plan to push more purchases of new cars. As for EVs, they suffer from the same design weaknesses plus whatever pitfalls come with the battery. There is no economical way to fix a damaged EV battery right now, and I suspect there may never be.
I want to agree, but they're opening themselves up to competition then, and it's coming; Chinese car companies like Aiways, BYD, Hongqi, JAC, Jaecoo, Nio, Ora/Wey, Seres, Xpeng, Zeekr, Lynk & Co (the latter two are both part of Geely, which owns Volvo), MG (in Chinese hands since 2006) and Exlantix are active or will be soon in western Europe and pushing hard to sell generally more affordable cars. Lync & Co is especially popular because they have a rental program, cancelable per month (€650 a month by the looks of it).
They only need repairs if they break down. EV reliability is quite good.
In any case, the cost of repairs is a temporary effect. Mostly this is just dealer ignorance and a lack of mechanics that know how to do these repairs. So, they are learning on the job, making beginners mistakes, and are having issues correctly diagnosing problems with cars they are supposed to fix. This all adds up to higher bills. But that should get less of an issue as these repairs become more routine and people get trained up.
Otherwise, the TCO of EVs was already quite favorable for fleet owners, lease companies, and anyone capable of using the power of spreadsheets needed to calculate the difference. There are some clear trends there. For commercial fleets, EVs are very popular because they are simply better from an economic point of view. With purchase price of new vehicles dropping below that of equivalent ICE vehicles soon, this is going to become more obvious for less calculating consumers as well.
Repairs are also needed in accidents, and notably damaging the battery is pretty catastrophic damage on a car. Basically no way to repair it, so you need to replace the whole thing with a used one or something.
I pozit partly real effects: EV are made from units with higher cost basis. And partly less real: car manufacturers have an assumed rate of profit on a car, and are converting from one income model (buy price) to another (lifetime maintenance cost) to retain a profit model.
Scarcity/cost of parts? Lack of trained maintenance personnel? Hopefully that is an issue that is mitigated by an increase in marketshare.
I've personally watched a man in a powered wheelchair single-handedly and nearly effortlessly completely disassemble an EV battery so my gut tells me it isn't any increase in difficulty of repair due to the battery and it seems that most of the rest of the cars are similar to ICE automobiles-- and surely motors are easier and cheaper to work on than engines?
Repairing an EV battery is a risky operation, especially if you don't know whether it's damaged and about to short out as you pry it open. Working on such a thing anywhere near your home, or if you are in a wheelchair and can't run away in an emergency, is a terrible idea.
You are right in a way. ICE engines can be expensive to work on. But even the most dramatic repairs to ICE engines is presently cheaper than a typical EV battery. You could probably change the engine and transmission in a car for $10-15k, and that is very rarely necessary. Most repairs are minor for the life of the car, which could (up to the latest techno-trash designs) be easily 20 years or 300-500k miles. If auto makers wanted to, they could make ICE cars expected to last 30-50 years with routine maintenance and occasional replacement of worn-out parts. But they won't because it would put them out of business. Besides, people like new shiny things and being different.
Aren't they all enshittified smartphones on wheels? I'd consider getting one if there were simple ones. The closest to what I'm looking for is https://www.caricecars.com, but that's not very practical car in terms of size. I'll soon be selling my combustion engine car and the EV I'll be replacing it with is a cargo e-bike.
Modern vehicles today are “complex” because apparently car manufacturer focus groups tell them the consumer want more tech junk in their vehicle. Consumers apparently want “sAfEr” vehicles in the form of LaRgEr Is SaFeR.
More resources to build each vehicle. Higher costs of production. Car manufacturers need to often farm out the technical aspects as well and need to license the tech. More sensors and cameras. More and more points of failure. Reliability of vehicles is dropping. Wasteful idiots trading in vehicles more often.
I'm glad other people recognize the problem. What can we do? Apparently, we are a minority in the car market who are looking for simplicity, reliability, drivability.
I've been holding onto an old vehicle now for some time and the car market has only worsened. When the 2016 Miata was released, I had hoped for a resurgence in simple sportiness. Recently Toyota released a light truck IMV-0 . I can't think of too many elegant vehicles out there otherwise.
Lucky for us Bolt owners who qualified and got their packs replaced under the recall. I will hold on to my 2017 for another decade or so as it now sports a pack that's less than 2 years old. It's almost like getting a brand new car.
Scuttlebutt I've been reading in the trade press is batteries are likely to outlast the car. Gas engines tend to be trashed after 180-250,000 miles. But batteries may last 500,000 miles or more. That's over 40 years of driving.
Other thing is as energy density increases the weight penalty for EV's is dropping. Possible that eventually EV's will be lighter than gas cars as well.
>Possible that eventually EV's will be lighter than gas cars as well.
The energy density of gasoline is about 100x the energy density of batteries. Batteries can have other advantages but it's pure fantasy to think batteries will beat the energy density of gasoline.
EVs are more efficient than ICE, so you gain 2-3x there. Then, if we’re talking city driving ICE is even less efficient unless they’re hybrid or ideally plug-in hybrid, in which case much of the weight benefit goes out the door.
Then you’ve got the fact that batteries are now being used as a structural member, which you can’t do with a gas tank.
Then there’s volumetric energy density. Gas tanks necessarily eat into the usable volume within the car. Batteries can just be integrated in the floor of the car.
In theory, if you drove around with a huge gas tank you could exploit the benefits of the high energy density, getting range that an EV could never hope to match. You could drive for thousands of kilometres without refuelling. But with the gas tanks that cars are actually delivered with, for the kind of range people actually need, the weight of the engine/transmission becomes a very significant fraction of the whole drivetrain+energy storage.
I really don’t see the point of throwing the “100x” number around when it’s completely obvious from looking at real-world vehicles that the actual achievable difference is far, far smaller, and that we’re 1-2 generations of battery chemistry improvements away from weight parity for a vehicle with the kind of range people actually need.
It's true that batteries will never weigh as little as a 12 gallon gas tank. But that doesn't factor in the weight of the engine and drive train. Electric motors are lighter for the same torque and power than gas engines. And they only need a simple reducing gear vs a automatic transmission.
As for crashing, it's commonly understood that even on ICE cars, even minor damage to structural elements can total a 5+ year old car.