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If you're talking about legal matters then words are important.

No one was ever forced to take a vaccine. Nor were they coerced by the state.



meaning like losing a job unless you get a jab, considering that a significant force?


That is a private company making a decision about their work environment.

You don't have the right to demand that they cater to your requirements.


I work for the government


Then they're just an employer to you. They're not acting as rule-maker. It's very different from a legal requirement that applies to all jobs.


this would be true… if you lived in fucking china or north korea and someone controller “all jobs”


You have that relationship reversed.

If you work for the FBI you can quit at any time and work for a different companies with different rules. You can’t work for a company that gets to ignore minimum wage laws.


this all makes sense of course, I am not forced to stay at the FBI. however, I just might:

- love what I do and love the team I am on a my mission.

- have a career at fbi, not a “job” I am willing to change like underwear

- be gs-15 few years away from retirement/pension/…

you can technically say this is a “free” country and all that but it is just semantics


You don’t lose a pension when you quit, you simply qualify for fewer years served.

A career extends beyond a job means that you can transition to something related outside the FBI. If there some aspect of a job you dislike then quit.


we can go glass-half-full-glass-half-empty back and forth ad nausem here for sure :)

bottom line though, the then government (which is soon to be now government) went full ballistic on us during COVID times and vaccine mandates affected many lives


Only some parts of the government “required” their employees to get vaccinated, the entire US government didn’t. Even those bits only hit ~98% compliance.

When you volunteer to work for someone you’re agreeing to do what they want or quit, that’s by definition a choice. When many private employers had the same requirements complaining about overreach by the government is misplaced, it’s at most overreach by employers.


“only” 98% compliance should tell you all you need to know whether people are “forced” or not… the prospect of losing your job might not be that alarming for HN-average-person but…


You can hit 100% compliance by actually firing people. 98% means lot’s of scary memo’s and little action.

So yea 98% says a lot about how toothless this all was.



I was not driven away, got jabbed


On what grounds?


No.

Making hard choices inherently implies options. Vaccines saved well over a million people’s lives at negligible heath impact for the wider population, that’s simply what states are going to do in an epidemic.


I can tell if you took a red pill or a blue pill :)


Neither


They were coerced by the state: they issued mandates which required vaccination to engage in normal rights. That’s the literal definition of coercion.

I think it’s interesting how many people deny that — almost as if you know what was done is morally repugnant.


Viruses are not concerned with ethics and morals.


Okay — but we have more concerns than a single virus.

It’s entirely possible to engage in net-negative behaviors because you fixate on a singular goal — a human version of the “paperclip optimizer”: we became “COVID optimizers” and produced suboptimal results.

Ethics and morals are time-honed heuristics to avoid those failures. “Freedom” is the heuristic that distributed risk assessment and planning out perform centralized versions — and we forgot that in our panic.


And some day there may be another epidemic for which we optimize for freedom, and after which there will be no human left to enjoy the freedom (or those left will be too busy surviving to worry about things such as “freedom”).

It is fortunate that the COVID-19 pandemic did not rise to that level. Maybe it couldn’t have, but that’s easier to say with the benefit of hindsight.

Or some other catastrophe that threatens us. My point is that natural things do not care for artificial concepts such as “freedoms” and “rights” and “morality”.


> Maybe it couldn’t have, but that’s easier to say with the benefit of hindsight.

We knew within two weeks of most major shutdowns that Covid wasn’t even close to as bad as predicted by the Imperial College. Society decided to completely ignore that data and instead doubled down on its hysteria for more than three years.


You say that as if the recommendations for freedom weren’t based on the initial medical data.

But they were and you’re inventing a false dichotomy whereby we had to engage in totalitarianism contrary to evidence of COVID’s deadliness or some hypothetical infinite bad might have happened.

That’s nothing but bullshit, from somebody who was wrong.


> Viruses are not concerned with ethics and morals.

Good thing we aren’t viruses and have intelligence and the ability to step back and think through our actions.

There is more to life than exactly one specific myopic focus on a virus. It takes an incredible amount of privilege to believe that the only problem humans can solve for is an exactly one single virus to the exclusion of literally everything else. Massive, massive amounts of privilege to think that way, in fact.




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