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HATEOAS was supposed to be that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HATEOAS



Wait was it? HATEOAS is all about hypermedia, which means there must be a human in the loop being presented the rendered hypermedia. MCP seems like it's meant to be for machine<->machine communication, not human<->machine


I agree that HATEOAS never made sense without a human in the loop, although I also have never seen it be described as such. IMO that’s an important reason why it never gained useful traction.

There is a confused history where Roy Fielding described REST, then people applied some of that to JSON HTTP APIs, designating those as REST APIs, then Roy Fielding said “no you have to do HATEOAS to achieve what I meant by REST”, then some people tried to make their REST APIs conform to HATEOAS, all the while that change was of no use to REST clients.

But now with AI it actually can make sense, because the AI is able to dynamically interpret the hypermedia content similar to a human.


Hypermedia isn't just for human consumption. Back in the 90s, the Web was going to be crawled by "User Agents": software performing tasks on behalf of people (say, finding good deals on certain items; or whatever). Web browsers (human-driven interfaces) were the most common User Agent, but ended up being a lowest-common-denominator; the only other User Agents to get any widespread support were Google crawlers.


My understanding was that the discoverable part of HATEAOS was meant for machine to machine. Actually all of REST is machine to machine except in very trivial situations.

Not sure I'm understanding your point in hypermedia means there is human in the loop. Can you expand?


H in HATEOAS stands for "hypermedia". Hypermedia is a type of document that includes hypermedia controls, which are presented by the hypermedia client to a user for interaction. It's the user who makes decision what controls to interact with. For example, when I'm writing this comment, HN server gave a hypermedia document, which contains your comment, a textarea input and a button to submit my reply, and me, the human in the loop, decides what to put in it the input and when to press the button. A machine can't do that on its own (but LLMs potentially can), so a user is required. That also means that JSON APIs meant for purely machine to machine interactions, commonly referred to as REST, can't be considered HATEOAS (and REST) due to absence of hypermedia controls.

Further reading:

- https://htmx.org/essays/how-did-rest-come-to-mean-the-opposi...

- https://htmx.org/essays/hateoas/


So that's not my understanding. Hypermedia, as I understand it, are embedded links in responses that present possible forward actions.

They are structured in a way that machine program could parse and use.

I don't believe it requires human-in-the-loop, although that is of course possible.


HTML is a hypermedia format, the most widely used, and it's designed mainly for human consumption. Machines parsing and using something is too broad an idea to engage with meaningfully: browsers parse HTML and do something with it: they present it to humans to select actions (i.e. hypermedia controls) to perform.

Your understanding is incorrect, the links above will explain it. HATEOAS (and REST, which is a superset of HATEOAS) requires a consumer to have agency to make any sense (see https://intercoolerjs.org/2016/05/08/hatoeas-is-for-humans.h...)

MCP could profitably explore adding hypermedia controls to the system, would be interesting to see if agentic MCP APIs are able to self-organize:

https://x.com/htmx_org/status/1938250320817361063


I've programmed machines to use those links so I'm pretty certain machines can use it. I've never heard of the HTML variation but so will have a look at those links.


> I've programmed machines to use those links so I'm pretty certain machines can use it

I'm curious to learn how it worked.

The way I see it, the key word here is "programmed". Sure, you read the links from responses and eliminated the need to hardcode API routes in the system, but what would happen if a new link is created or old link is unexpectedly removed? Unless an app somehow presents to the user all available actions generated from those links, it would have to be modified every time to take advantage of newly added links. It would also need a rigorous existence checking for every used link, otherwise the system would break if a link is suddenly removed. You could argue that it would not happen, but now it's just regular old API coupling with backward compatibility concerns.

Building on my previous example of hn comments, if hn decides to add another action, for example "preview", the browser would present it to the user just fine, and the user would be able to immediately use it. They could also remove the "reply" button, and again, nothing would break. That would render the form somewhat useless of course, but that's the product question at this point


Yes, most of your observations about limitations are true. That doesn't mean it's not a useful technique.

This is a reasonable summary of how I understand it: https://martinfowler.com/articles/richardsonMaturityModel.ht...

This aligns with how I've seen it used. It helps identify forward actions, many of which will be standard to the protocol or to the domain. These can be programmed for and traversed, called or aggregated data presented using general or specific logic.

So New actions can be catered for but Novel actions cannot, custom logic would require to be added. Which then becomes part of the domain and the machine can now potentially handle it.

Hope that helps illustrate how it can be used programmatically.


how did the machines you programmed react to new and novel links/actions in the response?


New are fine, Novel need catered for. I have left a fuller explanation to a sibling comment.


Right, so that means that the primary novel aspect of REST (according to the coiner of that term, Roy Fielding), the uniform interface, is largely wasted. Effectively you get a level of indirection on top of hard-coded API response endpoints. Maybe better, but I don't think by much and a lot of work for the payoff.

To take advantage of the uniform interface you need to have a consumer with agency who can respond to new and novel interactions as presented in the form of hypermedia controls. The links above will explain more in depth, the section on REST in our book is a good overview:

https://hypermedia.systems/components-of-a-hypermedia-system...


If you have machine <-> machine interaction, why would you use HTML with forms and buttons and text inputs etc? Wouldn't JSON or something else (even XML) make more sense?


heh, there was a good convo about HATEOAS and MCP on HN awhile back:

* https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43307225

* https://www.ondr.sh/blog/ai-web




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